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| Blizzard/Whirlwind | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 17 2009, 06:19 PM (270 Views) | |
| Lloyd6770 | Sep 17 2009, 06:19 PM Post #1 |
 
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Basically, I'm trying to get Blizzard + Whirlwind to miss the window of activation for Divine Wrath/War Chariot. If I remember the rulings correctly, basically what happens is the window in which your opponent can activate Divine Wrath is skipped by making Black Whirlwind's effect chain link 2. Here's how the scenario would work: I summon Blizzard. (There are 2 things that will happen here because of Black Whirlwind and Blizzard) I choose to make Blizzard's effect chain link 1. I choose to make Black Whirwind's effect chain link 2. When the chain resolves, it resolves backwards. Black Whirlwind's effect resolves searching Vayu/Fane. Blizzard's effect resolves, summoning Shura/Bora/whatever you want. In between chain link 1 and 2 is when Divine Wrath/War Chariot would need to be activated, but because you put Black Whirlwind on Chain Link 2, that window for Divine Wrath/War Chariot is missed. |
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| Val | Sep 20 2009, 08:11 AM Post #2 |
Final Vision
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Good show on posting this, and +rep for not misusing the phrase "missing the timing" to describe why Divine Wrath cannot be activated. The basic idea is that when trigger effects are involved like this, all the applicable ones are placed onto the chain before anything else is. Since anything that opts to negate an activation, such as Divine Wrath or Solemn Judgment needs to be placed onto the chain directly after what it wants to negate, it would not be able to negate Blizzard's activation. |
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| Lloyd6770 | Sep 20 2009, 08:19 PM Post #3 |
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Thanks Val. I just wanted to make sure I had the description right. Can you go a little farther into why my opponent can't Divine Wrath/War Chariot after Blizzard's effect even though those are both counter traps? |
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If you want to duel, add me to your friends list. I duel on Hotmail/AIM/YVD. Hotmail - thegloveofdoom@hotmail.com AIM - Lloyd6770@aim.com | |
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| Val | Sep 21 2009, 05:43 AM Post #4 |
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Final Vision
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Basically, it has to do with the fact that when multiple trigger effects activate during the same response window, all of those effects are added to the chain in accordance to the SEGOC principles before any other effects (such as activation negators) can be activated to join that chain. If the controller of those effects has Blizzard's effect as the 1st link & Black Whirlwind's as the 2nd, the chain will look like this. Link 1 - Blizzard's effect that targets a monster in the graveyard. Link 2 - Black Whirlwind's effect. Since it's not until these two links have already been built that non-trigger effects can be activated, Divine Wrath has no way of sneaking in between and negating the activation of Blizzard's effect. This is because effects such as Divine Wrath & War Chariot that negate the activation of something can only negate the activation of the most recent chain link. It's important to note that if a player wanted to chain something like Forbidden Chalice as the 3rd link, they would be free to target the Blizzard to negate his effect. This is because while Forbidden Chalice negates effects, it doesn't negate the activation of effects. Think of it like this. If my Giant Rat attacks your Giant Rat, both trigger effects form a chain with mine being the 1st link. As such, if you wanna play Divine Wrath, you cannot negate the activation of my effect because it's not the most recent effect to activate. While it may not be something that we think about too often, it's too important to be caught off guard when it happens. |
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| Lloyd6770 | Sep 21 2009, 05:56 AM Post #5 |
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Thanks Val. 
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If you want to duel, add me to your friends list. I duel on Hotmail/AIM/YVD. Hotmail - thegloveofdoom@hotmail.com AIM - Lloyd6770@aim.com | |
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| The One J-Cool | Nov 22 2009, 05:52 AM Post #6 |
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I may just be over thinking this, but doesn't what you're saying, Val, only apply to when 2 mandatory trigger effects? My question then would be, is Black Whirlwind's effect counted as a mandatory effect? Because last I checked, when a card states "When (insert condition here), you can (insert effect here)" it isn't considered mandatory, and thus your opponent would be able to chain a card to the effect of Blizzard. And since Divine Wrath is a counter trap, you wouldn't be able to chain the effect of Black Whirlwind to Divine Wrath (due to Spell Speed) I could be wrong though, I guess I'm just trying to shed my thoughts on the situation, and also confusing myself a little in the process. Anyway, fell free to tell me whether I'm wrong or right. |
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| Val | Nov 23 2009, 11:15 PM Post #7 |
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Final Vision
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When multiple trigger effects (optional & or mandatory) want to activate at the same time, they do so by forming the chain's early links by way of SEGOC orientation as follows, before any non-trigger effects can be activated. Turn Player's Mandatory Defending Player's Mandatory Turn Player's Optional Defending Player's Optional Then once those effects have activated & been added to the chain, non-trigger effects that are spell speed 2 or higher may be activated to join the chain. Its important to remember that even counter-trap cards lack the ability to cut into the chain before all the trigger effects have been accounted for, as that's how the game was designed. Yeah, its kinda strange at first... But I've found that even complex situations can be made sense of when we look at them one step at a time. |
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| TheWhiteRose | Jan 6 2010, 05:11 AM Post #8 |
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When Blizzard is summoned and Whirlwind is activated. You then choose the effect of which to activate first. sense they both activate at the same time. If you do Whirlwind First, and follow up with Blizzard. You can still get divine wrathed. But if you Blizzard first and then Whirlwind you cannot. I need to clarify this though so i'll let you know. |
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| Flu | Jan 6 2010, 11:28 AM Post #9 |
Dude, you're getting a Nel
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Val already had this, just saying. You are correct, though. |
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Johnathan Tyler Avery 1943-2010 I miss you, Daddy  | |
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| TheWhiteRose | Jan 6 2010, 07:10 PM Post #10 |
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Yea I know. xD But I just wanted to give a clarification on the rulings they asked. Thats why they brought me in lol. |
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| Flu | Jan 6 2010, 09:32 PM Post #11 |
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Dude, you're getting a Nel
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Kinda makes me feel useless. I was a level 2 judge under upperdeck, and now am a judge under konami. As is Val (I believe) |
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Johnathan Tyler Avery 1943-2010 I miss you, Daddy | |
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| TheWhiteRose | Jan 6 2010, 10:10 PM Post #12 |
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As far as they told me there were not any judge's here? When did you get Certified and who gave you the test? |
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| Flu | Jan 6 2010, 10:30 PM Post #13 |
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Dude, you're getting a Nel
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Okay a few things: 1. Because nobody knows something doesn't mean it's nonexistent. 2. I strecthed the truth just a bit as I tend to when I get mad and I apologize (as you were pretty much agreeing with val in old threads that didn't need bumping) The Truths: 1. Was a level one judge under ude 2. Was GOING to become level two, but then konami took over 3. Have yet to go about re-certification, but shall do so within the year. Edited by Flu, Jan 6 2010, 10:41 PM.
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Johnathan Tyler Avery 1943-2010 I miss you, Daddy | |
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| TheWhiteRose | Jan 6 2010, 10:48 PM Post #14 |
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No worries. And I appreciate your honesty. That shows the makings of a great person. They have testing online I'll have to get the link again from Julia. You can also get certified at jumps at Tournaments were Julia is. Sadly if you don't judge in official tournaments after you get it. They remove you from the judge program to take care of stagnant judge's. Its a new system Julia made herself. Hope that helps if you wanted to know. They only got level 1 testing open though level 2, 3 ect hasn't been finished yet. As far as I know. Also the tests are really really really in depth and they also include Japanese rulings that just came over. So study EXTRA hard. |
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| Flu | Jan 6 2010, 10:51 PM Post #15 |
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Dude, you're getting a Nel
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I've started the reenrollment process today with the link on the website. Now I just has to wait for the email to continue :B And I knew to contact julia but thank you for the helpful info. Now to stop bumping this dead threa :ninja style: |
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Johnathan Tyler Avery 1943-2010 I miss you, Daddy | |
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4:26 AM Jul 30
